Connected & Ready

Connected products and the circular economy, with Annie Gullingsrud

Episode Summary

Product authenticity and the ability to track clothes throughout their lifecycle are becoming increasingly important to manufacturers and consumers alike. Developing connected clothing presents opportunities to deepen customer relationships and drive sustainability. In this episode of Connected & Ready, host Gemma Milne talks with Annie Gullingsrud, Chief Strategy Officer at EON, a technology company focused on the fashion and clothing industry, about her company’s vision for the “circular economy,” the various technologies that are enabling that vision, and what the implications might be for other industries. Microsoft Dynamics 365 Supply Chain Management helps businesses build agile, connected, and resilient supply chains to effectively meet changing customer demand and ensure business continuity. Using predictive insights powered by AI and IoT, Dynamics 365 helps streamline operations to maximize efficiency, product quality, and profitability. Request a live demo today: https://aka.ms/AA8l720 Thank you for listening to Connected & Ready! Do you have ideas of how we can improve the show? Want to recommend a guest for us to interview? We value your partnership and participation. Please drop us a note at connectedandready@microsoft.com. We would love to hear from you.

Episode Notes

Gemma Milne talks with Annie Gullingsrud, Chief Strategy Officer at EON, about the impact of IoT on fashion, understanding the “identification problem” in the clothing circular economy, why her company prioritizes customers over technology, and the value of solving the identification problem for consumers. 

Topics of discussion

About Annie Gullingsrud:

Annie Gullingsrud is Chief Strategy Officer of NYC-based technology company EON, fashion and retail’s Connected Product Cloud. EON is redefining the way people buy, sell, own, use and connect with products by giving each garment a unique cloud-hosted Digital Identity—powering retail’s transition to a sustainable and circular model for commerce.
Annie's experience lies at the intersection of technology, systems-based design, and sustainability to scale circular fashion. Before leading Eon's global strategy, Annie led the Cradle to Cradle Products Innovation Institute’s fashion sector and has worked with a vast variety of fashion brands and designers, material producers, industry organizations, innovative recyclers and recommerce partners in the shift toward a more sustainable and circular fashion industry.   

Annie is author of Fashion Fibers: Designing for Sustainability (2017), Bloomsbury, New York; is an advisor to the brand Pangaia; and has previously served on the board of Goodwill San Francisco area.

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Episode Transcription

Gemma [00:00:05] Hello and welcome. You're listening to Connected and Ready, an ongoing conversation about innovation, resilience, and our capacity to succeed brought to you by Microsoft. I'm Gemma Milne. I'm a technology journalist and author. And I'm going to be exploring trends around how companies are adapting to a disrupted world and preparing for tomorrow. We're going to speak to the innovators who are bringing products, operations, and people together in new ways. In today's episode, I'm chatting with Annie Gullingsrud, chief strategy officer of New York City based technology company EON, who discusses the many ways the IoT is revolutionizing the fashion industry and how the proliferation of connected products is increasing consumer confidence and deepening brand loyalty. Along the way, we discuss IoT’s ripple effects on fashion's global supply chain, the benefits of a circular economy, and how businesses can balance the pressures of digitization with delivering authentic experiences. Before we start, I want to thank all of you listeners out there. If you have a topic or a person you'd love to hear on the show, please send us an email at connectedandready@microsoft.com. We're so thankful for you all now on the episode.

Gemma [00:01:17] Annie, thank you so much for coming and joining us on the show today. I wonder if you could start with a little introduction, tell me who you are, what you do, and a little bit of the path that you took to your current role. 

Annie [00:01:28] Gemma, thank you so much for having me on the show today. I'm really excited to be here. My name is Annie Gullingsrud, and I'm the chief strategy officer of a technology company named EON. EON is a company that works at the intersection of fashion, technology, and sustainability. And I joined the EON team in 2018. And my journey before that was really centered in design, sustainability, and what we now term as circular economy. So basically before coming to EON, I spent 10 years doing sustainable and circular design, working to improve sustainability, the sustainability of materials. I'm also an author of the book “Fashion Fibers Designing for Sustainability,” and I worked on the board of one of the biggest charity organizations here in the US, Goodwill. So it was there that I got to really participate in the different elements of the way that garments move throughout their life cycle. 

Gemma [00:02:29] Incredible, well we're going to get into a bit more detail about, specifically about EON and what you're all doing there. But before we do that, let's start with a bit of a, I guess, a brief overview of innovation in the fashion industry. So for people from all different industries are listening to this show, tell us what's been happening on a global scale in the past few years? And specifically, has the pandemic accelerated digital transformation and fashion? 

Annie [00:02:52] Yeah, you know, there's a lot that's been happening in the fashion industry over the last 10 years, and it's been really exciting to be a part of it. And I would say the biggest movement has been in circular economy. And it's interesting, I've seen a lot of different things happen, but for some reason, the movement in circular economy has really taken off and a lot of brands and retailers have come on board making commitments and starting incremental change. And what that means is these companies shift from - shift to different types of business models that basically enables them to sell one product over and over again instead of one product, ignore what happens to that product and begin again. So there's historically been this we may call it overproduction, we just may call it production. And we are disregarding as consumers and customers and brands, we're sort of disregarding those materials after we create them. So the circular economy shift has been, I would call it an awakening in the industry toward a new way of doing things. And so as a result of that, there's new types of technology and innovation. So just historically, it's been really difficult. So emerging over the last 10 years has been new innovations and technologies for new ways of recycling that enable the sort of dismantling of that product into regenerated materials. 

Gemma [00:04:19] Thank you, it's awesome to get this context. And I think, you know, it's interesting to hear it from your perspective being in the industry. I think as someone outside the industry, more of a consumer, shall we say, I'm seeing the shifts massively in terms of culture in the way that we're talking about fast fashion and fashions role and the sustainability conversation. So it's awesome to have you here today to talk about this. Let's dive into technology, because you mentioned that, you know, now to try and start thinking about some of these problems. Technology is one way of approaching that and specifically for this conversation, the Internet of Things or IoT, often associated with things like manufacturing, but starting to catch on in the fashion world. Before we dove into sort of specifics of EON, can you give us a bit of a broad sense of how IoT is showing up in the fashion space? 

Annie [00:05:06] For sure. And I am going to take a step back a few steps and just say that all of that innovation has sort of led to this point of realization for me in particular, which is the inability to scale and commercialize. And so it was there that in that introspection that I began to question and look to what's been happening. You know, we've been spending five, 10 years in this shift to circular economy. And while I see all of these commitments incredible, and then five years passes and just left wondering, well, what actually happened, you know. And then continuing to see just the production and these amazing companies coming on the scene who have these incredible platforms and just wanting more product on those sites and wondering why haven't we shifted? Why haven't we commercialized all of our words, you know, all of our commitments? And that's at the point that I met Natasha. Natasha Frank is the CEO and founder at EON. And, you know, Natasha had created this company years before that basically was solving the problem of identification. She had always envisioned a platform and her journey took a little bit of a different track because, you know, part of before developing the platform, companies were saying to her, well, what about the, you know, the trigger or the like, the RFID? And so she focused on a, you know, an RFID that was washable. So it was just a matter of time before really the industry was ready and she got a team ready to start building the platform. And this is right before I got on board. So in 2018, I met Natasha Frank. And, you know, she had been developing this company that was based on IoT. And at that time like admittedly I've become a tech person. But I would say at the time I didn't know necessarily what that was, but instinctively I knew that it was the solution to the problem. So IoT can bring identification to the beautiful products and materials that are being put out there by designers, brands, and retailers. So the power of, what IoT, and I'll describe our platform in a moment - the power that it can bring is basically it can carry the embedded value of these products and materials so that they can communicate their worth to all stakeholders in the value chain. 

Gemma [00:07:44] Can we actually just roll back a little bit and talk a little bit more about this identification problem here? Because I think it would be good to get that a little bit clearer. What is that problem? What do you mean by identification? As in: we don't know where the things are? We don't know what they are? What do you mean by that? 

Annie [00:08:00] OK, so I'm going to explain the identification problem by giving you some real-life examples. I worked with a luxury company across many, many years to create the world's most perfect wool fiber. You know, so from a chemical standpoint, it was, you know, like wool needs to be scoured. There's like an oily substance on wool that you're not going to wear. It's called lanolin. So that oily substance, lanolin, needs to be removed from the fiber by way of scouring, which is a chemical rich process. So we ensure that that chemical rich process was aligned with the best chemical standards. We incorporate dyes that were - dyes have chemicals to right, and so we incorporated the best dyes that were in alignment with the best chemical standards. We ensured that the sheep that were producing that the wool was just ethically treated. It was perfect and it was beautiful and it went into jumpers or sweaters, right. And that story I can tell and I have a sweater that represents that wool The challenge is, is that that information about that journey of those materials was on that luxury site. It was on the product page. But as soon as those aspects of the website disappeared and the former director of sustainability left and joined another company, there's no association with that vision of that product after that product was sold. That entire product is biodegradable, right. And so I also recognize that for those of you who may be listening and are in fashion, the industry also sort of struggles with the infrastructure to biodegrade. So those systems need to be developed to biodegrade textiles. But all of that is not going to matter if those garments aren't labeled as biodegradable. And this garment wasn't labeled as biodegradable. Now, it was on the website. So at that point that, you know, someone purchases that beautiful, perfect sweater, it loses its association with all of that integrity and that journey and it becomes a sweater. 

Gemma [00:10:16] Is that then a marketing thing or is that actually doing anything in terms of making the world more sustainable, right? Because if you're already creating that wool and is being used in some sweaters and people are buying it, I don't want to say it doesn't matter that people know. But what that example seems like is a marketing issue, not a supply chain, or actually trying to make the world more circular problem. 

Annie [00:10:41] Yeah, it is a marketing opportunity. So for brands who are trying to amplify and grow their resale and second hand models, of course, you're going to want to use those initial investments to resell. So absolutely it is. We work with marketing teams and those opportunities are what is going to help sell the shift into a more circular and sustainable way of being if those people are not at the table, this becomes an altruistic movement and that doesn't work. And so the business incentive is what's most meaningful to these companies. So absolutely. Amplify the sustainability. Elongate, I would say elongate the sustainability investment, why would you put a bunch of dollars into amplifying production without reselling based on the same assets? The other thing is, if you've heard of the term circular design, what does circular design mean? It means to build a product with an intention for where it goes next. So designers are now shifting into more of a circular way of approaching things, which is how can I sort of elongate the vision of this design? How can I design in the intention for what's next? So ways to do that are modular design or design for disassembly, the ability to maybe swap out certain aspects of the design or, hey, you know, I recognize that this thing that I'm creating, whether it be a T-shirt or a shoe, actually just needs to be recycled or possibly biodegraded. And like I said, I struggle with saying biodegraded because there's no infrastructure to do that. But designers are doing and preparing that. So those sort of principles are baked into the design. The problem is, is there's no way for that designer to communicate with what we call the value chain or the supply chain after point of sale, right. So there's just no way. Designer over here is not going to tell Goodwill down the lane: hey, guys, you need to disassemble this. They're doing what's going to be most valuable to their business. So there's no connectivity line. So there has to be some sort of synching up of the communication between design intention and implementation. And today, it's separated. It's disconnected. 

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Gemma [00:13:35] Let's go into EON then, because I feel like we've set up the problem and the challenge quite well now. So tell us, what exactly does EON do and how does it solve this problem? Tell us about the tech. 

Annie [00:13:46] EON has developed one of industries first SaaS platforms that enable brands to automate the creation of cloud hosted digital identities. So the digital identities are for single physical products, which then enable the ability for them to create a connected product. So every single item, your shirt, Gemma my sweatshirt, right, has a digital identity so that digital identity has a digital twin on our EON product cloud. That digital twin enables the ability for that garment to share information about itself to customers and partners as the products moving through its lifecycle. When I say life cycle, I mean the end-to-end life cycle. I am not ignoring what happens after the customer. I'm integrating that. So from sale to resale, to repair, to resale, to recycle and regenerate, that connected product can now communicate information or data about itself to the stakeholders in the value chain. 

Gemma [00:14:58] So how does that work in practice? So, you know, I'm almost thinking about this. As you say, there's somebody buys a product and maybe they donate it to Goodwill or so on and so forth. Is somebody at Goodwill scanning the item and then going, how should I recycle this or what should I do? Do they have software that's sitting there that allows them to tap into that? Give us a couple of examples of how this really allows for this full journey of information and how everybody can actually access that at all different points. 

Annie [00:15:27] Of course. So imagine a garment. I'm wearing a sweatshirt. So that sweatshirt has a, what we call a physical enabler or a trigger inside the garment. So that can look like something like a QR code or even something like an NFC, which is a phone tappable chip. So every single garment is going to have like a physical connection, right? That that physical connection is to its digital twin. So simultaneously, this garment is replicated on our EON product cloud. It has a bunch of data associated to it. That data is essential, the data is curated, and it's an opinionated point of view of all the essential data for connected product. We developed the protocol for that working with industry. So basically, that trigger and in this case say it's a QR code, it's not like a QR code, I'm sure you're familiar with scanning a QR code to get a menu. It's a little bit the same and different, which is that this one QR code can be scanned by a customer. That customer has their own experience developed by the brand. The brand loves this because it allows them to create transformational, not transactional relationships with customers. So this is a way - it's really a media channel or a platform for them to communicate with customers. I love it because it's a way that they can put forward the sustainability investments or the brand investments from the company and also provide other products that the brand suggests some sort of cross-selling or upselling and also share where the product can be resold or taken back. So think about this as an integrated channel directly on the product in a consumer's closet, right. That same ID can essentially communicate to a reseller. Because it's a connected product, we have the ability to curate that experience specifically for the reseller or the recycler, which means that they're going to get a bunch of product and material data because what's missing for them in their business operation is that they do not have product data. They do not know what these products are. So they don't want to look at a customer experience. They want to know what product data is. So when they scan the same product or have an automated system to accept that product data, they are able to receive that product data, essentially receiving a bunch of product information that they never would have seen from looking at the product. Now, simultaneously, every time a product is engaged with, we are building what we call a digital passport and what I call the true lifecycle of a product. Today, the fashion industry maybe intentionally and doesn't intentionally know where products end up, right. So we are empowering these brands to have the kind of visibility over where their products are in a way that they couldn't do before. So any time a product is interacted with, there's a series of metadata that goes back to an individual item passport. So at EON, we actually create an item passport in alignment with Gemma's t-shirt, in alignment with Annie's sweatshirt. So there's an individual tracking of that product end to end. And so it's able to give brands that visibility of a true life cycle end to end. 

Gemma [00:19:02] Let's dive in a little bit then to data and analytics here, because obviously this is a major part of the value proposition of what you're doing at EON. Saying that you describing this, particularly this idea of the passport, I don't necessarily want people to know where my clothes are or what's happening with them. There's something quite nice about just having a T-shirt and there not being a chip in it and so on and so forth. So tell us a little bit about how data is collected, how it's used, and maybe some of the best practice from other industries that you're either implementing or they can borrow from you to make sure that ethics is obviously so core to what you're doing. 

Annie [00:19:37] Right. 

Gemma [00:19:38] And so it must be there for the data, too. 

Annie [00:19:40] Yeah, I think it's important to honor what you just said, Gemma, is that - I get it. You don't want someone tracking you. You want a T-shirt. So security is essential to EON and EON's product cloud. And we rely on Microsoft Azure's infrastructure for that security. And Azure makes it easier for a startup like us to scale, keeping the principles and necessity of security. And so everything else that we do when it comes to customer and collecting customer data, which we don't, is in alignment with GDPR, for example. So we are not collecting customer data unless what we're doing is in alignment with a brand's application and asking for that customer's you know, approval to collect that data. 

Gemma [00:20:31] And just also in terms of thinking about, again, this or the way the data is collected, the kind of how the analytics is done, so EON actually creates the technology that goes into the garment itself as well as the platform and then using Azure for that, or is it just the software? Like give us a little bit more insight into that. 

Annie [00:20:51] EON's focus is on the software itself and also building a network. OK, so I'm going to explain those two things. So our focus is on the software. So we have a product cloud that creates those digital identities. And so when I say digital identity, you want to think about, that there's a number and associated data. OK, think about it that way, right. So what we don't do is essentially the quote technology around the actual physical enablers. This is not Bluetooth where we're just like tracking garments. So what that means is we need to engage essential end points in the value chain. So if you think about every single stakeholder in the value chain, there's millions and billions. So think about people and companies. These garments are passing through all of those end points, right? And today they are not connected, but we need to connect them. That's part of what we do. We engage those endpoints in clusters and constellations. So it enables the ability for brands to communicate with those endpoints and their partners by way of the platform. So how do we actually do that, right. So EON has a partner network, so we bring those companies to the table. So we bring them to the table and on our platform brands invite them and connect them into their platform, right. So it gives them the ability for the brands to exchange data. So exchange data by way of the product. So they're saying, hey, partner, over here, yes, you can receive our product data. 

Gemma [00:21:26] Can you tell us a little bit about how brands might be able to, I guess, keep monetizing as a result of using this platform or using the technology? You know you mentioned the idea of being able to return and being able to see what's next, I guess, of the cycle. But a little bit more in that sort of brand and monetization point would be interesting. 

Annie [00:22:44] Resale is growing. We know that. We have all the data that shows us that resale is growing, particularly brands are losing customers to resale companies. So what happens is a brand creates a product. They sell that product to a customer and then they make more products, right. So that customer then has that thing in their closet. You know, it is interesting to know that we don't have accurate data for how long a consumer is actually using a product. And some of that research is saying six months, which is a little bit scary, right. It's not very high. So you can imagine, depending on the product, there's a lot of life left in that thing. So you think that there's this product, maybe it's a pair of jeans, right? There's a lot of durability in jeans. So that product is then being sold to an external resale company. And the challenge with that for brands is there's no incentive for them, right. So the technology behind the EON platform is enabling that connectivity and that monetization of that product with resale partners. So that is the intention, right. Is that the technology is enabling that communication and that exchange - the product data is what is valuable to these retail companies, quite frankly, because imagine the product data is the digital twin, that's what's valuable to these companies. So it's enabling the monetization of that product to the resale companies. So upon access of that product data, there is an inherent monetary incentive to the brand. So that's the systemic change that the EON platform is bringing forward, is its shifting into monetary incentives. So that's what the platform is enabling that ability to exchange data that the data is valuable, providing the data to the reseller and exchange of some sort of, you know, monetary value of the garment itself. 

Gemma [00:24:38] Let's turn to another kind of element of this discussion here, which is more around the customer experience. So some competitors of EON have said that your platform is prioritizing technology at the expense of customer experience. Let me let me hear your thoughts on that and tell us what's the right balance or the considerations or tradeoffs that businesses have to make as they sort of digitize offerings. 

Annie [00:25:02] Yeah, that's a great question Gemma, and a very bold question. I so much appreciate it, because it's actually sort of the opposite of what we're doing. We are prioritizing consumers. And why are we doing that? Why are we prioritizing consumers? They are important because they are a supplier in the value chain, they're a link, right. So when we sell something to a customer in a store, you know, historically fashion sort of moves on, right. But if we intend to create a universal inventory of product that we can continuously resell, we need our customers to provide that inventory. Today, brands and retailers sell inventory, but we don't think about inventory over a very long period of time, years and years and years. So H&M actually has a universal inventory out there in the world that they're not captivating right. They're not keeping in their sort of universal inventory. They're not capitalizing off of. So, you know, supply chains. Right. You have passing off of materials into yarn, creation of yarn, passing off of yarn. So customers are actually or consumers, I would say are an essential part of that supply chain today. So we need to rely on them to return that product to a specific place. So that's where the ID comes in and that's where the opportunity for brands to develop deeper relationships with their customers. So I think that's where the pandemic really comes in, is I think all of us have had this where we're sort of doing a lot of questioning of like, why am I doing this? Why am I at this job? Why am I buying this? Do I need this? What's most important to me? And we've seen that shift even before this, where customers are prioritizing transparency and they're saying, brands, I'm going to shop with you if you're providing public disclosures of the factories that you're working with. So I can ensure I'm not buying something from you that was created in a facility that doesn't treat its workers properly, you know, so that movement had begun even before the pandemic. And now we're all seeing the shift to brands really wanting to have deeper relationships with their customers. And so the ID is the way to sort of validate the integrity of what they're bringing forward on a product. It's a big, bold move. And fortunately, the brands that we're working with from YOOX Net-A-Porte to Target to Pangaea to Outerknown to Houdini and so many other brands are, you know, sort of validating that shift and the importance of that shift and leading the movement to digital IDs on products, and they're really beginning with the customer and use, you know, in elongating the use. 

Gemma [00:27:55] Let's talk a little bit about the consumer, I guess, piece here. The value proposition. You know, imagine your consumer holding two t shirts in your hand. One is a connected t-shirt and one isn't. What's the value proposition? 

Annie [00:28:09] The connected shirt has a sort of world of opportunities. Whereas the shirt is a shirt. Right. So when I envision this, I'm like, oh, there's this whole world of opportunities that's available directly through the ID. So let me give you an example of what those things are. So one of those things is understanding the product's integrity. So for those of us, many of us these days as consumers or customers are buying products that have deeper transparency and integrity. So that's accessible directly through the product. Another opportunity that you can access that we're really excited about is, you know, there is rebuying directly through the ID. So I don't know how many times you bought that, like, perfect pair of sweatpants or that perfect t-shirt or the, you know, the perfect leggings, like it's really difficult, the perfect pair of underwear, right? Like it's really difficult to find that again. So we are looking to engaging the consumer that way and just say just buy this directly through the ID, which I'm really excited about. The other thing is that shirt has more value because it has identification and data associated to it. Like when you buy Gucci, it has resale value almost at the same. It's worth almost the same amount as it did when you first bought it. Now, the problem there is that how do you know that Gucci is authentic? It's very difficult, actually. It's really difficult. And there's a lot of really great fakes out there. So that ID can provide the ability for authentication of a product for resale that uniquely benefits both the customer and the brand itself. So we're going to be thinking differently there and the ID is going to be the conduit to getting us to that place. 

Gemma [00:30:01] I want to build on this point because I think this is really getting to the core of, well, both what sounds like your passion, but also this, the sort of central problem of the fashion industry around. You used the word earlier overproducing as opposed to just production. And one of the things I think a lot about in all industries, with technology is are we sort of bringing in technology solutions in order to justify still wanting too much? Are we implementing these kind of technologies as a sort of sticking plaster or a Band-Aid so that we can continue to justify say, hey, I can keep buying these t-shirts because don't worry, they've got a QR code in them that allows me to recycle them later - instead of actually really rethinking consumerism. What do you think about that? 

Annie [00:30:51] Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I talked about systemic change in fashion for years. And, you know, what I learned is that there is no way to systemically change fashion without a scalable solution. And that scalable solution is technology and it's technology used with integrity. How about instead of disposing of that garment, why don't you make money on that garment again? And this is how you're going to do that. In order to do that, we need technology and there's no other way around it. 

Gemma [00:31:28] Let's finish off then and talking a little bit about that, I guess the business case, shall we say, because we I think we've done you've done an amazing job of framing it from the more ethical case. So what would you tell our listeners who are exploring IoT for competitive advantage, for business advantage? What type of technologies, skillset, strategic frameworks should they be cultivating both to make the most of this technology, but also to make sure that Trojan horse of ethics, as you call it, is still part of the conversation? 

Annie [00:31:59] Yeah, you know, it's interesting because when I think about this question with IoT, I inevitably think about those who may be listening, who are thinking about and wanting to design for circular economy. You know, there's a lot of reports, some reports out there about connected products. We put out a report in 2020 called the Connected Products Economy, which brings in connected products and circular principles in one. So I would suggest to check out that report and looking at incorporating the sort of principles into whatever methodology and platform or whatever you're creating for IoT. 

Gemma [00:32:34] I think that's a really brilliant point. And I think it is not just about incorporating principles and ideas of IoT and circular economy, but for any industry, there's always more than one framework or more than one view on things that you can and should incorporate, you know, when you're building new things. So that's a great point. And final question. I could talk to you about these topics all day. There's so much to say, but alas, we only have one podcast episode. What's next for EON and for its technology? How would you see it scaling, perhaps even beyond fashion? 

Annie [00:33:05] So what's next for EON is we're really focused on fashion right now. And I would say that's really our journey over the next couple of years. We're really honing in on the model, essentially. And so a lot of the companies that we work with today have begun in, you know, first initial launches and we're scaling with those same companies across their enterprise. So that's really big for us and the tools and the technology that are on our product roadmap, and we're going to be developing, are in alignment with enabling those companies to scale more quickly. And we are exploring other industries as well. Some obvious ones like home textiles. That's an obvious connection, and beauty products. So part of what we're doing with fashion is fashion is very complicated, and so if we can nail fashion, it's going to be easier for us to nail the other industries, quite frankly, because if you imagine, why is fashion complicated? The supply chain is very opaque. It's very disconnected. And there are a lot of materials in that one shirt you're wearing. So it just becomes this collection of things. We don't know what they are. So if we can really refine the model for fashion, it makes it a lot easier to bring to other sectors. 

Gemma [00:34:21] Annie, thank you so much for sharing so much with us today, both your passion as well as your insight into both the sustainability and fashion world, but also, as you say, the tech world and I think it's also refreshing to kind of hear somebody on a tech podcast such as this talking about the sort of hesitancy they had around entering the sector, but ultimately trying to, instead of just being kicking and screaming and being in a sector thinking about it in a slightly different way, I hope that can be an inspiration for many of our listeners. So, Annie, thank you so much for coming and joining us on the show. 

Annie [00:34:54] Gemma, thank you so much for having me. 

Gemma [00:34:58] That's it for this week. Thank you so much for tuning in. You can find out more about Annie's work and indeed some of the broader themes we discussed today in the show notes. If you enjoy the episode, please do take a few moments to rate and review the podcast. It really helps other people discover the show. And don't forget to hit subscribe and tune in next time to continue our conversation about innovation, resilience, and our capacity to succeed. 

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